Ellipse de la particule nobliaire
10 May 2020 03:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
igenlodeEllipse de la particule nobiliaire
This is the information I needed. I just didn't know what it was called so that I could look it up :-)
(Though it still doesn't specify the question of direct address, i.e. if you're actually trying to attract the nobleman's attention ;-p)
And I had no idea the number of syllables was significant, although it makes sense...
Edit: Wikipedia (once you know what you're looking for!)
"lorsque le nom est employé sans prénom, titre ni fonction, le « de » est élidé", e.g. Richelieu, La Fontaine.
So the Cardinal is "the duc de Richelieu" if you are talking about him, but "Richelieu" if you are talking to him. Likewise, Armand de Saint-Vire is "the comte de Saint-Vire" if you use his title, but "Saint-Vire" where he is the protagonist of a given scene.
Which, I'm afraid, means that Lancard should probably be addressing the Vicomte de Chagny (and differing capitalization rules between French and English on things like titles and street-names is a mine-field I have barely bothered to note) as "Chagny" by surname or "Lieutenant de Chagny" by (possible) profession, despite the fact that it sounds wrong. (I wonder if part of the problem is that it's short but not actually a single syllable?)
Somehow I can imagine Philippe's contemporaries -- his fellow-aristocrats -- addressing him casually as 'Chagny', just as the Earl of Essex might converse with 'old Norfolk', but for a commoner, who is, after all, Raoul's superior officer by seniority, to do it to Raoul -- who is not the holder of the family title but only a younger brother, and whose identity is not synonymous with that of his estates -- feels derogatory :-(
This is the information I needed. I just didn't know what it was called so that I could look it up :-)
(Though it still doesn't specify the question of direct address, i.e. if you're actually trying to attract the nobleman's attention ;-p)
And I had no idea the number of syllables was significant, although it makes sense...
Edit: Wikipedia (once you know what you're looking for!)
"lorsque le nom est employé sans prénom, titre ni fonction, le « de » est élidé", e.g. Richelieu, La Fontaine.
So the Cardinal is "the duc de Richelieu" if you are talking about him, but "Richelieu" if you are talking to him. Likewise, Armand de Saint-Vire is "the comte de Saint-Vire" if you use his title, but "Saint-Vire" where he is the protagonist of a given scene.
Which, I'm afraid, means that Lancard should probably be addressing the Vicomte de Chagny (and differing capitalization rules between French and English on things like titles and street-names is a mine-field I have barely bothered to note) as "Chagny" by surname or "Lieutenant de Chagny" by (possible) profession, despite the fact that it sounds wrong. (I wonder if part of the problem is that it's short but not actually a single syllable?)
Somehow I can imagine Philippe's contemporaries -- his fellow-aristocrats -- addressing him casually as 'Chagny', just as the Earl of Essex might converse with 'old Norfolk', but for a commoner, who is, after all, Raoul's superior officer by seniority, to do it to Raoul -- who is not the holder of the family title but only a younger brother, and whose identity is not synonymous with that of his estates -- feels derogatory :-(
