'Monsieur' redux
20 March 2021 09:29 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
igenlodeOn the subject of the Monsieur/Messieurs confusion, I've just started reading Hugo's "The Toilers of the Sea", and was very confused to discover a character who is referred to consistently as "Mess Lethierry", rendered literally as such. I couldn't tell if it was his name or his honorific, and it didn't look like either. I even went to the lengths of locating and downloading a French edition of the novel to see whether the 19th-century translator had become confused and/or altered the punctuation, but the name was printed exactly the same.
My further investigations were somewhat hampered by the fact that I wished to avoid 'spoiling' myself for the plot, since this is a book of which I've never even heard, but by searching for "Mess Monsieur" I did manage to throw up a passage which suggested that this might be an honorific unique to the Channel Islands, and armed with that information I was able to track down an article on A Farmer's vacation at about the date of the novel, which mentions that
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/52834/52834-h/52834-h.htm from Project Gutenberg also gives us various anecdotes in which the characters are referred to as "Mess Alexandre", "Mess Dumaresq" etc, with the footnote to the fairy-story of "Le Petit Colin" explaining helpfully that "'Mess' is the Guernsey colloquial for 'Monsieur', as applied to one of the farmer class".
So 'Mess' is an abbreviation in origin, apparently standing for 'Messire', but in this case being used by Hugo to impart a bit of local colour into the setting of his book. And apparently the 'mes' in 'Messire' is *not* plural, but is old French, from the Latin meos — so while 'messieurs=plural, monsieur=singular' is a handy mnemonic to remember which is which, it's not actually the origin of the words. 'Sire' is the oldest term, and 'sieur' and 'seigneur' derive from oblique cases, all stemming ultimately from the Latin senior (in the days when being old was regarded as a qualification for high position rather than a sign that your knowledge was out of date!)
Presumably "mon seigneur" and "mon sieur" arose on the French mainland at a later point, when 'mes' had been replaced by 'mon' as a male possessive, but 'messire' as a title had already fossilised...
My further investigations were somewhat hampered by the fact that I wished to avoid 'spoiling' myself for the plot, since this is a book of which I've never even heard, but by searching for "Mess Monsieur" I did manage to throw up a passage which suggested that this might be an honorific unique to the Channel Islands, and armed with that information I was able to track down an article on A Farmer's vacation at about the date of the novel, which mentions that
If one is a common worthless sort of fellow, he is called Jean, for short; if a grade better, perhaps with his own cottage and pig, and some self-respect, he is addressed as Maitre Jean; a small farm, a couple of cows, and a better position generally, would entitle him to be called, Sieur Jean Marquand; he must have a comfortable property, and be a man of good standing in his parish, to be called Mess. Marquand; and it takes official dignity, or the best social position to entitle him to be called Monsieur Marquand. Years ago the bailiff was the only Monsieur in Guernsey.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/52834/52834-h/52834-h.htm from Project Gutenberg also gives us various anecdotes in which the characters are referred to as "Mess Alexandre", "Mess Dumaresq" etc, with the footnote to the fairy-story of "Le Petit Colin" explaining helpfully that "'Mess' is the Guernsey colloquial for 'Monsieur', as applied to one of the farmer class".
So 'Mess' is an abbreviation in origin, apparently standing for 'Messire', but in this case being used by Hugo to impart a bit of local colour into the setting of his book. And apparently the 'mes' in 'Messire' is *not* plural, but is old French, from the Latin meos — so while 'messieurs=plural, monsieur=singular' is a handy mnemonic to remember which is which, it's not actually the origin of the words. 'Sire' is the oldest term, and 'sieur' and 'seigneur' derive from oblique cases, all stemming ultimately from the Latin senior (in the days when being old was regarded as a qualification for high position rather than a sign that your knowledge was out of date!)
Presumably "mon seigneur" and "mon sieur" arose on the French mainland at a later point, when 'mes' had been replaced by 'mon' as a male possessive, but 'messire' as a title had already fossilised...
